The Uí Maini Puzzle

[Muireagain]

On the general subject of the Ui Maine. When we use the term Ui Maine, we are only actual referring to the descendants of Bresal mac Maine - for all Ui Maine pedigrees stem from Bresal. So why is the population called Ui Maine, when the founders are the descendants of Bresal mac Maine?

Noting that the 12th century Book of Leinster also contains older pedigrees starting with Maine mac Neil (i.e., Cenel Maine) and not Maine mac Eochdach:

Bec mc De Druad m. Gnoe m Lugdach m Dallain m Bresail m Mane m Neil Noigiallaig.
Cumman & Crón & Rignach tri ingena Aeda m Guaire m Fhínain m Amalgada m Fhiachrach m Bresail m Mane m Neill Noigiallaig.

We could reason that prehistoric stems were mailable (as were some later stem, i.e., Clan Colman Mor).

Professor F.J.Brynes suggested that the Ui Maine and the Cenel Maine (located on different sides of the Shannon and in difference regional kingdoms) were actually the same people.

(The neighboring Cenel Maine lines descend from Maines sons, Briuin and Breccain.)

The Ui Maine are originally place near Mag nAí and are said to have migrated south to south co. Roscommon and further into co. Galway. Cenel Maine are first recorded in Teffia (co. Longford) and migrate south into west co. Westmeath and further into co. Offaly.

One of the descendants of Briuin mac Maine is Tlaman, whose ancestors are called Muintir Tlamain. Reading of Cogadh Gaedhel, Muintir Tlamain is viewed, by one translator, as an ally to the tribes of Connacht. Where Muintir Tlamain also viewed as a tribe of Connacht?

When looking for Ui Maine DNA, it might possible include Cenel Maine members as well?

[Webmaster]

AFAIK, the Uí Maini themselves chose the cland name. Why they chose to honor Maine instead of Bressal, I have no idea.

Re the Cenél Maini, there is a lot of controversy as to whether there ever was a Maine son of Niall Noígíallach.

While Coirpe mac Néill is a major figure in the annals and appears in Tirechán's hagiography, Maine son of Niall is not mentioned by Tirechán, nor is there any record of his conquests. It may be possible, and is perhaps even probable, that descent from Niall of the Nine Hostages through an otherwise poorly attested line of descent is a genealogical fiction designed to strengthen Uí Néill control of the midlands. The Cenél Maini probably originated as part of a much larger Uí Maine kingdom extending from the eastern part of modern County Galway through County Roscommon, across the River Shannon, and into County Longford.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tethbae#Cenél_Maini

BUT, if there was a Cenél Maini, we would find them under R1b-ZZ87 along with ALL the other known Uí Néill septs. As far as I am aware, while there are several unidentified subclades of R1b-ZZ87, none of them are giving evidence of being the Cenél Maini yet.

However, further research into St. Patrick's itinerarium in Connacht may indeed place the Uí Maini of his milieu in quite a different location than has been traditionally accepted. Please see this topic for details. Logistically speaking, and remember, St. Patrick had a rather large retinue and was traveling by chariot, the speculated locations are much more reasonable than the traditional ones. A lot of further research needs to be done on this. But again, it points out that even by the time of Tírechán, circa the mid 600s AD, that after only ~200 years, there were definite conflations of place names and people names, even if not for the proposed alternate locations. I maintain conflation is the cause of most of the inconsistencies in the Irish records, not intentional fabrications.

[Muireagain]

Cenel Maine mac Niall speculation

I have speculated that the BY198 includes the older Irish population called Ui Maine. While it seems that the Cenel Maine mac Niall are the eastern branch of the Ui Maine, just from a different ancestor.

What catches my eye is the Quinns and Morgans that branch from FGC40502.

O'Clery's pedigree has:

Genelach .H. Muirigein
Muirigen m Cernachain m Tadgain m Mail bennechta m Braicdhe m Bresail m Concobair m Brecc m Colla.
Mael fothaigh (o tat .h. Siaghail .i. na leagha) m Crimthainn m Brenaind m Briain m Maine m Nell noigiallaigh.
Cathalan (o tat muinter Cathalain) m Cernachain m Tadhgain m Mail bendachta.

Genelach I Cuinn
Gilla na naomh m Floinn m Muiredaigh m Aedha m Cuinn m Congalaigh m Catalan m Cernacan m Tadhgan m Mail bendachta.

also
Genelach .H. nGabhallaigh
Diermait m Con coiccriche m Sitricc m Con caille m Bresail m Amalgada m Bresail m Ceiternaigh m Gobhalaigh m Bresail m Concobair m Becc m Colla.
[O'Ferrall's manuscript has the O'Gavala descending from Gabala, son of Tadhgan, who is missing from O'Clery's pedigree.)

Genelach .H. Duibhgendan
Duibgend m Tadhgain m Mail Bennachta m Braicdhe m Bresail m Concobair m Bec m Colla m Conghaill m Blaithmaic m Aedha m Brenaind m Brian m Maine m Nell noigiallaigh

Genelach O n-Aghdha
Giolla na naomh m Aedha m Becce ma Aedha m Agda m Duibgind m Tadgain m Mail bhennachta.

Genelach O Leogbain
Flann m Agdha m Flainn m Leogbain m Agda m Duibhgind m Tadhgain m Mail bennachta.


These are some of the families of Muintir Tadcan of Tethba.

Morgan is FGC40502>A15872
Quinn is FGC40502>FGC40501
Gallagher is FGC40502>BY11726>Y66755>BY116869
Egans is FGC40502>BY11726>Y66755>FT45853 and Hourihan
Knowles is FGC40502>BY11726>BY21186>BY60536
Davis is FGC40502>BY11726>Y92715

Just thoughts, Bernard.

[Webmaster]

The ONLY reasonable correlation between ALL the Connachta genealogies and the Y-Haplotree is shown at this link. The last of DF105, DF108, or DF109 most likely occurred in Eóchád Muigmedón, so that ALL the subclades under the R1b-DF105 clade are descendants of Eóchád Muigmedón.

For the last 3 years we have consistently seen the discovery of "unifying" mutations that brought previously independent clades under a common parent clade; and in so doing, has shrunk the number of subclades under R1b-DF105 significantly. I expect that when T2T gapless testing becomes commercially available, we WILL see the Y-Haplotree represents the early Connachta genealogies almost exactly.

Certain specific genealogies are being trashed by the Y-DNA, but overall the Y-DNA supports the early Connachta genealogies; and I do not expect to see any major divergence from that trend at all. So I can see NO other correlations except that ALL of R1b-A18726 are the descendants of Dau Galach and I will maintain this point of view vociferously unless new data irrefutably contradicts it.

So, re the Cenél Maini meic Néill, they MUST be under the R1b-ZZ87 clade, as must ALL descendants of Niall Noígíallach. Nothing else makes any sense. I personally think that Maine mac Néill is a fiction as other scholars maintain. But again, if he did exist and there are surviving male descendants, then they MUST be under the R1b-ZZ87 clade with all the other descendants of Niall Noígíallach.

Further, I am beginning to suspect there were at least 2 completely independent Uí Maini tribes in the Connacht and West Meath region that were conflated by later scribes and scholars. This is purely speculation at this point, but please see this topic for amplification.

[Muireagain]

The author of the 11th century Laud 610 (15th century manuscript) knew some was up:

Dá mac Fiachach Sroptine .i. Muredach Tírech, Domnall, sen Ó Maine. Óenmac Muredaig Eocho

"Two sons of Fiachach Sroptine, namely, Muredach Tírech, Domnall, the old of Ó Maini. The only son of Muredach was Eochu."

If the old of Ó Maini are descendants of Mani m Echach m Domnaill m Fhiachach Sroptine m Carpri Lifechair m m Cormaic Ulfhota m Art Oenfhir m Cuind Cetchathaig.
Who are the new of Ó Maini descended form? Nua Ó Maine?

[Webmaster]

The same genealogy from the Book Of Ballymote:

Fiacha sraiftine atiad a mc. .i. Muiredach tirech a quo in rigraidh & Domnall sen O Maine Chonnacht & Ferghus & Eochu & Feradhach a quo .H. Crimthannan.
Tri mc. Muiredaig tirigh .i. Eochu Muighmeadhon & Feradhach & Mc. Erca.

So what do we do with Fergus, Eóchu, and Feradach as 3 more sons of Fiachu Sraibtine?

And the same with Feradach and Mac Ercca as 2 more sons of Muiredach Tírech? This is in direct contradiction to Laud 610 which says that Eóchád Muigmedón was the only son.

It is obvious that spurious sons have been added to these genealogies since there has been NO sign of any of these lines so far. Yes, they could have died or daughtered out or even not had descendants doing any Y-DNA testing; but there are so many lines this would have to occurred in, it seems a little improbable. Further, we have the clear example of Eóchu Doimlén, the putative brother of Fiachu Sraibtine and progenitor of the Cland Colla, who we know are not even R1b-M222+.

I repeat, it is as almost certain as can be with the current data that R1b-DF105 is STRICTLY the Connachta - ALL descendants of Eóchád Muigmedón. There is only ONE other branch under R1b-DF104 and that is R1b-FT14462, which is obviously an early split well before the Connachta. As I also said before, the best explanation I can find for this branch is Conn Cétchathach's son Condla. It is a hodge podge of surnames that would fit with Condla leaving Ireland and PERHAPS settling in Britain, Wales, or Scotland.

All we can do is find the best correlation possible between the genealogies and the Y-DNA with the data we do have until/unless we find a well marked tomb of Eóchád Muigmedón or someone similar and get ancient Y-DNA to confirm when mutations occurred.

[Muireagain]

When did a Gaelic chief have only only one son? Especially when they practiced Polygyny.

[Webmaster]

Maybe a lot of these questions will be answered soon with the release of the T2T CP086569.2 reference. YFull is doing work with new Nebula Genomics 30X WGS Deep tests and on a recent one they are showing a coverage of 44.8 Mbp instead of the usual 23.5 Mbp for 30X WGS tests and only 18.5 Mbp BigY 700 tests using the hg38 reference. This means the possibility of almost twice as many mutations seen to help refine our basic Y-Haplotree, which is very exciting.

Go to https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/R-FGC65253/. Then click the white info button to the far right of the yellow R-FGC65253 clade identifier. On the popup that opens, click the Samples tab, and you can see the data for all the samples in that clade. It is really amazing to see that almost double the coverage on the Y chromosome. This is still somewhat experimental, but it is indicative of the things to come in the very near future.

[Muireagain]

I look forward the idea of greater granularity.

Just to throw this out there. There is my hypothesis for the relationship of BY198 Haplogroups and surnames, assuming BY198 represents the Sen O Maine.

Starting with three Larkins, who share:
BY198>BY20835>BY20834>BY21680>BY21673>BY21672>BY21674
they would be from:
Bresal>Dallan>Lugaidh>Fearadhach>Cairbre Crom>Cormac>Eogan Buac, aka descendants of Eogan Buac line

Then there are:
BY198>BY20835>BY20834>Y36587>BY139826 a single Lyons that might be a descendant of Eogan Finn
BY198>BY20835>BY20834>Y36587>FTA56326 a single Donelan that might be a descendant of Eogan Finn

These possibilities that those that are Y36587+ are descendants of Eogan Finn and BY21680+ are descendants of Eogan Buac, Hence, it is possible that the Y36587+ Dunns could be the O Duibgenn of Ui Maine, who also descendants of Eogan Finn, i.e.,
BY198>BY20835>BY20834>Y36587>A15878>A15876 being the stem of O Duibgenn.

Then there are two Morgans (myself and a distant Irish cousin form North-East Galway) that share A15872 (plus two other local Cruffon Morgans that are BY198):
BY198>FGC40502>A15872
and if we are the O Murchadhain of Clann Crimthainn from North-East Galway, we would then descend from:
Breasal>Dallan>Lughaidh>Criomhthann Caol

There are the Ollamh Egans that share:
BY198>FGC40502>BY11726>Y66755>FT45853
Hence by comparison Ollamh Egans, would be descendants of Criomhthann Caol m. Lughaidh m. Dallan m. Breasal, being FGC40502+

And I have argued that there is material suggestinf an association between Clann Crimthainn and the Egans:

From the Book of the Ui Maine:
“The headship of every people who revenge the insults of Hy-Maine belongs to the Sil Crimthann Cael, i. e. to the Crumthanns and the Clann Aedhagain, and theirs is the privilege to array the battalions and go in the place of the arch-chief in the conflict.”

Annála Connacht:
“1260.3, Macwilliam Burke made an expedition against Fedlimid [O Conchobair]. He came to Roscommon, from where he sent a raid into Cruffon [land of Clann Crimthainn], plundering the Clann Aedacain, and another into Tir Maine, plundering many of the household of the Bishop, for they were assembled(?) at that time at Erenagh.”

[Webmaster]

Huh. I always thought you were Morgan #FTD-824294 who is R1b-BY160768+ and likely Síl Muiredaig.

Regardless, this is my working hypothesis until/unless better evidence comes along:

Code: Select all

 Conn Cétchathach
     [DF104]
        |
   Art Óenfer
        |
  Cormac Ulfada
[one of DF105, DF108, or DF109]
        |
 Cairbre Lifechar
        |
 Fiachu Sraibtine
[one of DF105, DF108, or DF109]
        |
 Muiredach Tírech
        |
 Eóchád Muigmedón
[one of DF105, DF108, or DF109]
        |
         ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        |                                                         |                                                        |
      Brión                                              Fiachróe Foltsnáthach                                     Niall Noígiallach
                                                                                                                         [ZZ87]
        |                                                         |                                                        |
         -------------------------------                           --------------------------------                       etc.
        |                               |                         |                                |
    Dau Galach                    Conall Oirisen            Feradach Daithe                     Amalgaid
     [A18726]                       [BY35731]                 [FGC23742]                       [BY188399]

Of course there is variability in the occurrence of the mutations, but this is the best fit between the Y-DNA and the genealogies that I have been able to find. And yes, this means that R1b-BY198, etc. are descendants of Dau Galach; specifically his son Ernán; while R1b-A259 are the descendants of Eógan Sríab. And, of course, we just don't have the genealogies for the descendants of Ailill. But otherwise this fits very well. And I will maintain this interpretation adamantly, vehemently, and vociferously until/unless better data comes along. So there is no place for Domnall, sen Uí Maini Connacht; just like there is no place for Eóchu Doimlén.

Also, the early Uí Néill genealogies are recognized as being badly buggered. I speculate, and it is pure speculation for now, that Niall had ONE son and that all his recorded multiple sons, were actually grandsons. I don't have enough info to say who was his only son. But this surmise fits the recorded dates much, much better. It also fits with a mutation every other generation pattern that seems to hold with the data we have so far; so that ZZ87 MAY have occurred in Niall's perhaps only son. Of course, mutations don't happen every other generation like clockwork, but this seems to be what happens on average in the region of the Y chromosome covered by the hg38 reference.

As I said, hopefully the newer mutations we will start seeing soon will provide better clarity.